From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Jay Dugger [til_e@hotmail.com] Sent: Monday, March 19, 2001 7:46 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: The Real Question About George >Now I can see an instance here where this might not be true, and that is if >MJ-12 is gearing to go public. If and when this happens, MJ-12 would need >to bring in the President. Are the Endtimes that close... I dunno. > See my "Disclosure & Disinformation" post. >And now for something completely different.... > >What if Bush Jr is DG? It's not that far-out... DG has gotten a Remember agents, the cell system is for _your protection_. I can think of no better example of why compartmentalization matters. >Bush Jr on the team. Especially if Bush Sr is DG himself, a veteran A much more interesting idea, this. Does his experience date from WW2 or from the late cowboy days? [snip] > >Or better yet, Colin Powell is DG (that piece of monkey turd that I might buy this if Powell had served in US Navy. ONI did take on MAJESTIC, after all. No, Powell is out of the real loop. Besides, how could you want to destroy the irony of a Secretary of State _not_ knowing about the most important diplomatic treaty in human history? >Or on this different tack thing, what if Bush Jr is brought into the know [snip] >your mileage may vary. Bush Jr could end up being MJ-12's worst enemy. That would last just long enough for him to become the second President assassinated in Texas. (And if that doesn't get the Secret Service to knock on Pagan's door, I don't know what will!) ----- Jay Dugger : (636) 448-7640 til_e@hotmail.com : duggerj1@home.com ----- Sometimes the delete key is your best friend. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of nyarlathotep [mdunne@dallas.net] Sent: Monday, March 19, 2001 8:15 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: RE: DG: RE: Systems...(excessive gunfondling, well bulletfondling) Acutally, if you wanted to be realistic, but still keep the system playable, up the damage from firearms. Now before you guys flame me, I am not saying to crank up the damage to silly levels but you can reflect real world statistics by modifying the game stats for firearms. A couple of quick fixes: Rates of fire- probably my biggest pet peeve with the basic system. Caliber is not the only deciding factor in ROF. A more important factor is the action of the gun itself. A 2" snub nose .38 S&W Airweight Bodyguard recoils a hell of a lot harder than a 6" Colt Python .357. Damage- The best demonstration I can recommend is to look at any of the recent publications on stopping power. Now without getting into the politics around that issue, what it boils down to is that certain rounds in certain calibers are VERY effective in delivering one shot stops on a person. Effectively this means that a SINGLE round dropped a man, either incapacitating him or killing him. If you wanted to reflect this, modify the damage that these round do based on what they shoot. For example the NATO standard 9mm Parabellum round is a Full Metal Jacket bullet (FMJ). It is also the standard issue round for many European police departments. It is also an absolutely LOUSY stopper. The 9mm FMJ only averages 33% one shot stops. It also tends to overpenatrate the target, exiting with enough energy to be dangerous to bystanders. However, several of the 9mm Jacketed Hollow Points (JHP) average into the 80% range. (Incidently, this is way all of you spec ops and counterterrorist units use them). When you look at the 125 grain .357 JHP or the newer .40 S&W cartridges, you average 90%+ one shot stops. Effectively it means that if you get shot, you are going down. What does this mean from a gaming perspective? Basically, a good solid hit into the torso with a decent JHP round will drop an average man. So, make sure the guns do enough damage. Yes this does mean that gunfights will be VERY lethal, but that is the point! Want to encourage you players to act realisticly? Give a realistic gun battle or two, that should encourage them to use their heads and not their trigger fingers! The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of ialdaloboth *genzundheit!* [ialdaloboth@hotmail.com] Sent: Monday, March 19, 2001 8:45 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: RE: DG: RE: Systems...(excessive gunfondling, well bulletfondling) Another thing you could do: multiply damage to the lower torso by 1.5, and multiply damage to the upper torso and head by 2. There's a world of difference between being hit in the right arm and hit in the left lung. Combat really is one of those weird things, eh? Most rules in most RPGs are devoted to it, while the really great things -- the RPing itself -- are purely diceless. J. Edward _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Mark McFadden [lizardrex@charter.net] Sent: Monday, March 19, 2001 9:33 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: DG: Dubya ----- Original Message ----- From: "David A. Farnell" <1639556911@jcom.home.ne.jp> > Actually, I was thinking that what with the sort of people who surrounded > Dubya and have been reincorporated into the administration, we've got quite > a few people who are in the know about Majestic, if not actually part of it. > And yes, no need for George Jr to know as yet. > > But let's be careful not to get a politics flamewar going, OK? As for why > humans would "elect such a moron," I have to say the choices were pretty > darned limited. And in the end, we weren't given any choice at all. I take it my rendition of "Hail to the Chimp" would be thoroughly out of line? ;-) OK, it's pretty obvious by now how I feel about Dubya, but damn it, he's got more hooks than a mat of Velcro. So how 'bout a ground rule? Let's keep it to a DG interpretation and let the chips fall where they may. But, first thing -- love him or hate him, the moron references are fair game. Anything that would make it into a Jay Leno monologue is kosher as far as I'm concerned, and that stands no matter who's in the Oval Office. Whatever trait they possess that gets spotlighted for satire by *everyone* is kosher here too. Is that OK with everyone? I'm looking for some consensus here. So his dad was a wimp, Clinton's a horndog, Gore's a stiff, and Dubya's a moron. Don't look at me like that, I didn't write all the jokes. So, let's look for some smoking guns in Dubya's resume. 1) Face it, his dad is President again and Dubya cuts ribbons and kisses babies. Evidence: check 'Favorite Son' or most any other biographical data that doesn't come from the Bush camp. George W. was never in danger of being valedictorian. Without rehashing the whole sorry history, suffice to say that his businesses were failures propped up by fortuitous and inexplicable (for people looking for profits) investments by people who just happened to be friends with his father. Nothing special about that, it's just one of the reasons it pays to be rich in the first place. He went from relative obscurity to front runner with no transition. It was obvious from the start that he would be the Republican candidate. I will tell you something the Shrub does have a genius for, and in politics it outweighs every other consideration: he projects 'Winner.' More than looks (though they help of course), more than funding (but just barely), more than a family name. Americans love winners. Oh sure, we think we root for the undergdog, but overall we back the guy who is going to win. This is why polls are soooooo important, they are telling us who is going to win so we can vote for them. C'mon, who doesn't feel that way? Not enough of us to get someone elected President, I'll tell you what. So, since Bush Sr. was the head of the CIA and privy to MJ-12 secrets and so has access to OUTLOOK techniques and yada infiyada, all they need is a face to put in front of the voters, who will react in predictable and controllable ways. Enough of them will in any case. It's a matter of spin. For deep deep conspiratorial fun, you can run the plot back to Bush Sr.'s coup in New Hampshire in the primaries against Bob Dole. All of the polls going in saw Dole winning by 19%. Gallup was very confident. Somehow during the evening the 'computers went down' and no tallies were coming in to the networks. Then the numbers came up and George Bush was in the lead and pulling away. He won by 19%. The governor of New Hampshire, John Sununu, a former software engineer, handed off the reins to the state to become George Bush's Chief of Staff when he made it to the Oval Office. Incidentally, the state-of-the-art ballot counters in New Hampshire all had two phone lines going to them. One for sending data out, and one for receiving upgrades to the software. Why is the New Hampshire primary soooooo important in American politics? Because that's the one that reveals the 'Winner' of each party. It's like a pennant race, they develop "mo" (baseballese for momentum) and gain that semi-divine aura of winner and Alpha of his troop. All that smoking artillery says that MJ-12 is now in control of the electoral process, even if that just means that they have better market research and PR. Delta Green should be very worried because the rules of engagement are now obsolete and need to be renegotiated. "Greys? Never heard of 'em. Nope, I'm obsessed with old spell books and amphibious humanoids. Can't imagine being interested in any of that UFO stuff. Nothing to see here, Delta go home. If you want to. OK?" 2) Here's a lengthy quote from http://www.davesweb.cnchost.com/henry.htm, a fascinating article about serial killers and MK-ULTRA experiments in prisons. The quote is intact because it conveys all of the ramifications of an act that dropped off the public radar when it happened. "On June 30th of 1998, Henry Lee Lucas - arguably the most prolific and certainly one of the most sadistic serial killers in the annals of American crime - was scheduled for execution by the state of Texas. Given the advocacy of the death penalty by Governor George W. Bush, things weren't looking good for Henry at that time. Bush had not granted clemency to any condemned man in his tenure as governor. In fact, no governor of any state in the entire history of the country has carried out more judicial executions than has Governor George. At last count, the state of Texas had dispatched 130 inmates on Bush's watch. So Texas was definitely not the place to be for a man in Henry's position. And considering the nature of Henry's crimes, it seemed a certainty that nothing would stand in the way of Henry's scheduled execution. There weren't likely to be any high-profile supporters, a la Karla Faye Tucker (though even personal appeals to Bush from the likes of Pat Robertson failed to dissuade the governor from proceeding on schedule with Miss Tucker's execution). Not likely because Henry's crimes were of a particularly brutal nature, involving rape, torture, mutilation, dismemberment, necrophilia, cannibalism, and pedophilia, with the number of victims running as high as 300-600 by some accounts - including Henry's own, at times - though this figure is likely inflated. By all accounts though, Lucas - frequently working with erstwhile partner Otis Toole, a self-described arsonist and cannibal - savagely murdered literally scores of victims of all ages, races, and genders. All indications were then that this was pretty much of a no-brainer for America's premier hanging governor. But then a most remarkable thing happened. On June 18, just twelve days before Henry's scheduled demise, Governor Bush asked the State Board of Pardons and Paroles, whose members are appointed by Bush himself, to review Henry's case. Strangely enough, eight days later the Board uncharacteristically recommended that Henry's execution not take place. The very next day, just three days short of Henry's scheduled exit from this world, Lucas became the first - and to date only - recipient of Governor Bush's "compassionate conservatism." The official rationale for this act of mercy was, apparently, that the evidence on which Lucas was sentenced did not support his conviction. There was a possibility that Henry was in fact innocent of the crime for which he was convicted. Never mind though that many of the 130 death row inmates who did not get special gubernatorial attention prior to their executions had equally credible claims of innocence that were met with by nothing but scorn and mockery." It is odd that he'd make Lucas his first pardon, he was already getting some bad press about the number of executions and jokes about his compassion. Michael Moore was keeping score and had him and his brother in Florida in an Execution Bowl. Mid 1998 is when a young man's fancy turns to thoughts of an Oval Office, any way you slice it commuting the sentence of Henry Lee Lucas (Henry: Portrait of a Serial Killer and websites all over) just doesn't make any political sense. It all happened quietly and without fanfare, but why happen at all? How does he or the state or any damn thing benefit from saving the life of Henry Lee Lucas? You couldn't get the Dalai Lama arguing against executing Henry. If there *is* a walking breathing endorsement for the death sentence it's Henry Lee Lucas. You know all those rules about serial killers we think we know from the FBI profilers? Run down the list of famous serial killers and notice how few fit the profile. Henry didn't fit it at all. He went to prison for murdering his mother. After a few years he was paroled. *Then* he became a serial killer. Here's one for the Bloody Mary fans, the secret training camps for the serial killers (according to Henry), is in the swamps in Florida. The same places the children dream of in Miami. Once you start down this rabbit hole it gets weird fast. I followed some links off of this article and now I'm not sure if Charles Manson is 5' 2" or 5' 7" tall, and you think that would be something easy to verify. 3) And then there's the shapeshifting....hey man, all I know is what David Icke tells me. Do you think I'm going out of my way to bestow any noble reptilian qualities on Dubya? You primates can have him, leave us out of this. OK, here's the man himself, David Icke: "They include the House of Windsor (the Royal Family of Britain), George Bush, and those sort of people. While we have our focus in the third dimension, they actually have their focus in the fourth dimension. They can move between the two and can look into this dimension in the fourth. These are what I call the full-bloods." Gotta love 'im. http://www.leadingedgenews.com/secret.htm for the full interview. Mark McFadden The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Mark McFadden [lizardrex@charter.net] Sent: Monday, March 19, 2001 10:08 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: DG: Re: Masons go public ----- Original Message ----- From: > No comment. The masons go to a public relations agency to > imrpove their image.... what next, knife-wielding cultists (tm) with > spin doctors!? > > http://www.independent.co.uk/news/UK/Media/2001-03/mason190301.shtml "In a bid to reverse the long-held perception that Freemasonry is at best an old boys' club and at worst a sanctuary for the socially inept, the United Grand Lodge of England has for the first time sought the advice of public relations experts." Uh, that should be "In a bid to reverse the long-held perception that Freemasonry is at best an insidious conspiracy and at worst a sanctuary for Things That Should Not Be, the United Grand Lodge of England has for the first time sought the advice of public relations experts." I'd love to sit in on the planning sessions for putting a positive spin on the Ripper murders. "John Hamill, the lodge's director of communications, said: "We have been out of the public's view and that has allowed a mythology to grow. We need to get back into the public consciousness in a proper way." [Ominous music, lightning flashes, horses whinny and we iris in on "public consciousness"] Mark McFadden The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Lindohf, Tomas [tomas.lindohf@capgemini.se] Sent: Monday, March 19, 2001 10:52 PM To: 'dgrpg@delta-green.com' Subject: DG: RE: Religion > So far this list has been pretty good about religion. Well, that's because we all know that any worship beyond the GOO is moot ;-) //Tomas Lindohf The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of The Nuge [jessthecatasc@oceanfree.net] Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2001 12:52 AM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: A question about jurisdiction On Mon, 19 March 2001, Randell Lee Wolff wrote: > > Well, actually the character in question is suspected to be involved in > terrorist activities, but there is no hard proof, and the CIA and other > agencies want to let him in to see what he's up to. But they would also > want to keep a very close eye on him. > > Thanks for the suggestions so far. Very helpful. Again, not living in the US, i don't know shit about interdepartmental co-operation, but what i do know of international co-operation is that recently, the US and Ireland signed an agreement allowing better co-operation between US agencies and the Garda Shiochana. So, that means the spate of FBI "consultants" here will probably increase. And terrorists: usually the country of origin requests to the US (or whoever) to declare them an Illegal organisation: then pretty much anything is OK. "Squawk! Polly shouldn't be!" - Polly the Octoparrot Visit http://www.oceanfree.net to get your free e-mail account and use our unique Irish Internet directory The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of The Nuge [jessthecatasc@oceanfree.net] Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2001 12:57 AM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: RE: Systems... This is getting off topic, as Monsieur Womack will point out, but CoC works because of the "MAKE IT UP AS YOU GO ALONG" logic. You can't really make rules for beings that can alter the laws of Physics as they go along. I tried assimilatiing the Marvel Super Heroes RPG (advanced set) to allow for easier higher-powered beings, but when you see Galactus lsited as Fighting: Class 5000 Agility: Class 5000 Strength: Class 5000 Endurance: Class 5000 Reason: Class 5000 Intuition: Class 5000 Psyche: Class 5000 you end up having to play it by ear. "Squawk! Polly shouldn't be!" - Polly the Octoparrot Visit http://www.oceanfree.net to get your free e-mail account and use our unique Irish Internet directory The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of The Nuge [jessthecatasc@oceanfree.net] Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2001 1:03 AM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: Bush jr., the Greys and Majestic On Mon, 19 March 2001, SGlancy12@aol.com wrote: > > In my humble opinion . . . > > Majestic wouldn't tell George W if his feet were on fire. The guy's a moron. I'll keep this one short: I of all people should not get involved in this thread, but hey, red rag, bull, you know... Dubya is the PERFECT MJ-12 dupe. He's stupid and patriotic enough to be convinced that MJ-12 is all that stands between the Aliens and the United States of America (oh, and everyone else too). Up goes Son of StarWars (with EXCALIBUR et al Built in), increased specialised Military units, increased Black Budgets. Screw the commie threat, the Alien threat will be enough to make Dubya give MJ-12 a blank check. To coin a phrase, "a true patriot is someone loyal enough to criticise". "Squawk! Polly shouldn't be!" - Polly the Octoparrot Visit http://www.oceanfree.net to get your free e-mail account and use our unique Irish Internet directory The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of The Nuge [jessthecatasc@oceanfree.net] Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2001 1:31 AM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: Unleash the Hounds! (SPOILERS for UNSEEN MASTERS) > [applause] Thank you very much. As I read that I managed tip over my coffee > mug over the keyboard. Comparing Tsattogua to Brad Pitt in True Romance... > hasn't anyone else got the feeling that we have all become a little weird > due to this mailing list (said the guy who read every single word in the > archives)? > > Jussi, using his reserve keyboard > Nah. I'm always this strange. While walking for a bus with a few science mates of mine (who are convinced that engineers are the most powerful people in the company. No. Seriously) in the middle of UCD carpark, i broke into "Wellcommen" from Caberet. Insane? Perhaps. Hold a note? You bet your nelly. - The Nuge (to answer a question posed by Eckard a while back: Yes! I am great fun at parties) " Welcommen, Bienvenue, Welcome...." "Squawk! Polly shouldn't be!" - Polly the Octoparrot Visit http://www.oceanfree.net to get your free e-mail account and use our unique Irish Internet directory The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of William Timmins [wtimmins@hotmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2001 4:14 AM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: RE: Re: DG: RE: Systems... >Is it actually in the 1990's handbook or was it just in Cthulhu Now? For >some reason I was under the impression that the tables were only in Cthulhu >Now. (Since my copy of the latter disappeared, this is not a academic >question...) > >David I thought Cthulhu Now = 1990's Handbook. I'll double check when I get home. Cthulhu Now definately has hit location rules. -=Will _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of William Timmins [wtimmins@hotmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2001 4:24 AM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: Dubya >From: "Mark McFadden" > So how 'bout a ground rule? Let's keep it to a DG interpretation and let >the chips fall where they may. > > But, first thing -- love him or hate him, the moron references are fair >game. Anything that would make it into a Jay Leno monologue is kosher as >far >as I'm concerned, and that stands no matter who's in the Oval Office. >Whatever trait they possess that gets spotlighted for satire by *everyone* >is kosher here too. > > Is that OK with everyone? I'm looking for some consensus here. I have no problem with political opinions explored within the context of DG games. I have a slight problem with political narrowmindedness within a DG thread, but big deal. I have a big problem with completely non-DG threads slamming political figures, particularly when they lack any substance beyond 'X sucks!' Why? I deal with political differences enough. If I wanted to hear political commentary, I'd be watching CNN. As for 'stuff that makes it into Jay Leno'... again, if I wanted political satire with no DG relevance, I wouldn't look for it on this list. -=Will _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Jussi Marttila [velcrokf@hotmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2001 4:57 AM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: DG: "Hannibal" and the intellectual threat Another noted sign of the endtimes: The recent movie "Hannibal" and the prequel "Silence of the Lambs" shows us a stereotypical psychopath. He is cultivated, intellectual, suave, debonair and add here any favorite attributes of your own. Psycho movies tend nowadays to feature psychos who are "sick" but smarter than the average. As far as I know, this isn't what most psychopaths are like in real life. Although they are necessarily not mentally deficient (like other movies show us), they are not cut with the sharpest edge of the knife. Think about Henry Lee Lucas. He wasn't all that bright, or was he? Ed Gein? Not a very smart chap. Although there are many serial killers with high IQ.s, like Ted Bundy and Ed Kemper, the high intelligence does not help the fact that they are severely hampered by the basic fact that they are insane(although "insane" not is really a correct term). They are unable to hold jobs for a long time, are bored easily and often have a history of substance abuse. Note that normally they do not suffer from mental illnesses and are aware of their deeds (which allows them to stand trial, be convicted and sent to Death Row instead of an asylum). My DG interpretation of "Hannibal" is this: we are being taught that to be intellectual is bad. To be smart and listen to opera is bad. Be dumb. Sleep. Consume. Watch TV. It's good to be one of the herd. Watched Face/Off yesterday. Note that first Travolta's daughter is pseudo-Goth. But when Happy End comes, she becomes a good, wholesome cheerleader type of girl. Equation: sticking out of the crowd - bad. Being part of the crowd - good. Comments? Jussi, dorky ranting wannabe psychologist. P.S. "Henry-Portrait of a Serial Killer" by John McNaughton should be on the to-see list of every Keeper. And remember that Ted Bundy confessed 23 murders. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of David Rodemaker [dar@horusinc.com] Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2001 5:23 AM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: DG: RE: "Hannibal" and the intellectual threat > Psycho movies tend nowadays to feature psychos who are "sick" but smarter > than the average. As far as I know, this isn't what most psychopaths are > like in real life. Although they are necessarily not mentally deficient > (like other movies show us), they are not cut with the sharpest > edge of the > knife. Think about Henry Lee Lucas. He wasn't all that bright, or > was he? Ed > Gein? Not a very smart chap. Errr... "Psychopath" isn't a defined mental disorder, what you have is people with a whole series of other mental disorders that manifest in this "serial-killer" manner. These could include Antisocial, Borderline, Schizoid, Multiple Personality Disorder, Delusional Disorder, and a whole host of others... (Doing this from memory) > Although there are many serial killers with high IQ.s, like Ted > Bundy and > Ed Kemper, the high intelligence does not help the fact that they are > severely hampered by the basic fact that they are insane(although > "insane" > not is really a correct term). They are unable to hold jobs for a > long time, > are bored easily and often have a history of substance abuse. Note that > normally they do not suffer from mental illnesses and are aware of their > deeds (which allows them to stand trial, be convicted and sent to > Death Row > instead of an asylum). Sure they're insane. But there is a big difference between the legal definition of insanity and a medical one. A lawyer would have to back me up on this one, but I think that legally you have to have to understanding of the right/wrong of your actions. Not only that but basically be mentally unable to be in control of your own actions. There is 2-3 books about the FBI Serial Crimes Unit written by the guy Thomas Harris modeled Will Graham after (The movie Manhunter, which was much better than Silence and based on the prequel) The title of one of the books is "Manhunter" IIRC. I check later and post. Great sources about the subject and the unit. David The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Davide Mana [doctor.dee@libero.it] Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2001 5:51 AM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: "Hannibal" and the intellectual threat Greetings. [this one bounced back the first time around. Sorry if you get it twice in the end] Jussi wrote.... >The recent movie "Hannibal" and the prequel "Silence of the Lambs" shows >us a stereotypical psychopath. He is cultivated, intellectual, suave, >debonair and add here any favorite attributes of your own. > >Psycho movies tend nowadays to feature psychos who are "sick" but smarter >than the average. As far as I know, this isn't what most psychopaths are >like in real life. Although they are necessarily not mentally deficient >(like other movies show us), they are not cut with the sharpest edge of >the knife. Think about Henry Lee Lucas. He wasn't all that bright, or was >he? Ed Gein? Not a very smart chap. [snippage] A scriptwriter friend of mine says this comes from the need to make evil attractive. Why such a need is there? Apparently comes from the fact that the "bad & repulsive" formula no longer works. Also, giving him such "high" conceits, you make Hannibal look alien, above the mass - I mean, he listens to opera, not to Britney Spears. Fact is, a real serial killer would probably be a Spears fan - the bitch/ingenue persona pulls weirdoes like in cartloads. :-> For a fact, a realistic scriptwriter should face the fact that your average serial killer looks more like the late Benny Hill than Sir Anthony Hopkins. >My DG interpretation of "Hannibal" is this: we are being taught that to be >intellectual is bad. To be smart and listen to opera is bad. Be dumb. >Sleep. Consume. Watch TV. It's good to be one of the herd. >Watched Face/Off yesterday. Note that first Travolta's daughter is >pseudo-Goth. But when Happy End comes, she becomes a good, wholesome >cheerleader type of girl. Equation: sticking out of the crowd - bad. Being >part of the crowd - good. > >Comments? I generally agree. [at this point I should mention Roszak's "Flicker" and tell all interested parties to get a copy and read it _now_] There's other suggestions flowing in American movies (and clones thereof), mind you, but all seem to point in a definite direction: conformity, unquestioning acceptance of standard, simple solutions, distrust of foreigners, distrust of intellectuals. Edonism as a substitute for meaning. Sex as a substitute for love and as love's only validation. Same goes, probably, for popular music - I remember Pete Townshend nastily remarking that musicians in the '80s were turning into the prophets of the joys of screwing on the beach. It got a lot bleaker from there on. All in all, if really Charles Fort was right and we are property, looks like the masters are gearing up for the harvest - they want us dumb, linear-minded, well fed, and happily multiplicating. So, as a personal suggestion, just say "No" to "Chocolat". Love is much more complicated than that. That's why it's rewarding. Just go and rent an old Troma classic. Or something by Corman. Be seeing you. Davide Mana Torino, Italy The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Bruce Ballon [Bruce_Ballon@camh.net] Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2001 5:58 AM To: 'dgrpg@delta-green.com' Subject: RE: DG: "Hannibal" and the intellectual threat A good film about a 'serial killer' is PEEPING TOM. No Hannibal be he! Screwy photographer with an obsession to catch a good snapshot of fear incarnate. Bruce -----Original Message----- From: Davide Mana [mailto:doctor.dee@libero.it] Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2001 8:51 AM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: "Hannibal" and the intellectual threat Greetings. [this one bounced back the first time around. Sorry if you get it twice in the end] Jussi wrote.... >The recent movie "Hannibal" and the prequel "Silence of the Lambs" shows >us a stereotypical psychopath. He is cultivated, intellectual, suave, >debonair and add here any favorite attributes of your own. > >Psycho movies tend nowadays to feature psychos who are "sick" but smarter >than the average. As far as I know, this isn't what most psychopaths are >like in real life. Although they are necessarily not mentally deficient >(like other movies show us), they are not cut with the sharpest edge of >the knife. Think about Henry Lee Lucas. He wasn't all that bright, or was >he? Ed Gein? Not a very smart chap. [snippage] A scriptwriter friend of mine says this comes from the need to make evil attractive. Why such a need is there? Apparently comes from the fact that the "bad & repulsive" formula no longer works. Also, giving him such "high" conceits, you make Hannibal look alien, above the mass - I mean, he listens to opera, not to Britney Spears. Fact is, a real serial killer would probably be a Spears fan - the bitch/ingenue persona pulls weirdoes like in cartloads. :-> For a fact, a realistic scriptwriter should face the fact that your average serial killer looks more like the late Benny Hill than Sir Anthony Hopkins. >My DG interpretation of "Hannibal" is this: we are being taught that to be >intellectual is bad. To be smart and listen to opera is bad. Be dumb. >Sleep. Consume. Watch TV. It's good to be one of the herd. >Watched Face/Off yesterday. Note that first Travolta's daughter is >pseudo-Goth. But when Happy End comes, she becomes a good, wholesome >cheerleader type of girl. Equation: sticking out of the crowd - bad. Being >part of the crowd - good. > >Comments? I generally agree. [at this point I should mention Roszak's "Flicker" and tell all interested parties to get a copy and read it _now_] There's other suggestions flowing in American movies (and clones thereof), mind you, but all seem to point in a definite direction: conformity, unquestioning acceptance of standard, simple solutions, distrust of foreigners, distrust of intellectuals. Edonism as a substitute for meaning. Sex as a substitute for love and as love's only validation. Same goes, probably, for popular music - I remember Pete Townshend nastily remarking that musicians in the '80s were turning into the prophets of the joys of screwing on the beach. It got a lot bleaker from there on. All in all, if really Charles Fort was right and we are property, looks like the masters are gearing up for the harvest - they want us dumb, linear-minded, well fed, and happily multiplicating. So, as a personal suggestion, just say "No" to "Chocolat". Love is much more complicated than that. That's why it's rewarding. Just go and rent an old Troma classic. Or something by Corman. Be seeing you. Davide Mana Torino, Italy The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Jussi Marttila [velcrokf@hotmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2001 6:02 AM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: RE: "Hannibal" and the intellectual threat >Errr... "Psychopath" isn't a defined mental disorder, what you have is >people with a whole series of other mental disorders that manifest in this >"serial-killer" manner. These could include Antisocial, Borderline, >Schizoid, Multiple Personality Disorder, Delusional Disorder, and a whole >host of others... (Doing this from memory) Uhh.. I was unclear there. I did not speak about psychopathy as a defined mental illness. My idea was to use the term as to describe deviant behavior, as seen in serial killer movies. On hindsight, I should have been using the word "serial killer" since I was talking about them all the time. Should lay off the coffee for a while. > > Although there are many serial killers with high IQ.s, like Ted > > Bundy and > > Ed Kemper, the high intelligence does not help the fact that they are > > severely hampered by the basic fact that they are insane(although > > "insane" > > not is really a correct term). They are unable to hold jobs for a > > long time, > > are bored easily and often have a history of substance abuse. Note that > > normally they do not suffer from mental illnesses and are aware of their > > deeds (which allows them to stand trial, be convicted and sent to > > Death Row > > instead of an asylum). > >Sure they're insane. But there is a big difference between the legal >definition of insanity and a medical one. A lawyer would have to back me up >on this one, but I think that legally you have to have to understanding of >the right/wrong of your actions. Not only that but basically be mentally >unable to be in control of your own actions. I quote a book I was reading when I wrote this. " Actual mental illness is rarely related to serial killers. They understand what they've done, regret them and do not see hallucinations - they are technically lucid, not psychotic.". This is badly translated from Finnish. I found my psychology book. There they define "psychopathy" and "sociopathy" as disturbances of character (I don't know the actual English term). Also, "impulsive behavior is more likely but the sense of reality isn't deficient". And finally, "The difference between between a person suffering from [as mentioned above] and a normal person isn't entirely clear and depends on how sanity is judged. I hope I made a point somewhere there, Jussi _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Bomias1@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2001 6:26 AM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: Cells/Friendlies/Gunfodder and Realism! (or how to be plausible) In a message dated 3/19/01 10:37:37 PM Eastern Standard Time, mdunne@dallas.net writes: << Acually, since Arkham is in the national socialist utopia of Massachussets, the ATF could be involved easily since it is almost impossible to get a gun in the state. Ergo, a shooting is probably done with an illegal gun from out of state, and since they crossed state lines, its a Federal case. >> Outstanding. That should work even better. The evidence will show that the gun used belonged to the shooter's dad and had been owned by dad for years. However, the situation above should do fine as a justification for the ATF agent's inclusion on the Task Force. The Thug Whisperer "Back off man, I'm a scientist! --- Peter Venkman The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of David Rodemaker [dar@horusinc.com] Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2001 7:42 AM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: RE: DG: RE: "Hannibal" and the intellectual threat > >Errr... "Psychopath" isn't a defined mental disorder, what you have is > >people with a whole series of other mental disorders that > manifest in this > >"serial-killer" manner. These could include Antisocial, Borderline, > >Schizoid, Multiple Personality Disorder, Delusional Disorder, and a whole > >host of others... (Doing this from memory) > > Uhh.. I was unclear there. I did not speak about psychopathy as a defined > mental illness. My idea was to use the term as to describe > deviant behavior, > as seen in serial killer movies. On hindsight, I should have been > using the > word "serial killer" since I was talking about them all the time. > Should lay > off the coffee for a while. I know the feeling... > I quote a book I was reading when I wrote this. " Actual mental > illness is > rarely related to serial killers. They understand what they've > done, regret > them and do not see hallucinations - they are technically lucid, not > psychotic.". This is badly translated from Finnish. > I found my psychology book. There they define "psychopathy" and > "sociopathy" > as disturbances of character (I don't know the actual English > term). Also, > "impulsive behavior is more likely but the sense of reality isn't > deficient". > And finally, "The difference between between a person suffering from [as > mentioned above] and a normal person isn't entirely clear and > depends on how > sanity is judged. Perhaps the difference between a Finnish and American diagnostic criteria... > I hope I made a point somewhere there, I think you did. BTW: John Douglas Mindhunter Journey into Darkness Obsession In the beginning portion of Obsession, Douglas makes the exact point that I did that while they (serial killers and sexual predators) are probably mentally ill from a clinical point of view, depending upon how you define that whole issue, they are not mentally ill from a legal standpoint. Very interesting books, certainly not for the squeamish. David The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of David.Clements [David.Clements@astro.cf.ac.uk] Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2001 8:57 AM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: DG: CFB2K The Challenge website doesn't seem to have been updated in a while... Any idea when the latest installments will go up, or have I got a connection problem? Dave The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of box_nine@ix.netcom.com Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2001 9:35 AM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: DG: [NEWS] Subtle Lot, Those Karotechia "The Hitler Techno Bar and Cocktail Show"? http://www.infobeat.com/cgi-bin/WebObjects/IBFrontEnd.woa/wa/fullStory?article=406442926 Steven The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Davide Mana [doctor.dee@libero.it] Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2001 10:07 AM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: CFB2K Greetings. >The Challenge website doesn't seem to have been updated in a while... > >Any idea when the latest installments will go up, or have I got a >connection problem? _ I _ have got a connection problem. I've been trying to update the site each night for one week now (before that, I was waiting for the latest updates), always getting some trouble. I'll see to it ASAP, even if Fortunecity is still incommunicado. Sorry for the inconvenience. Any specific way I can help through the mail? Davide Mana aka Replacement Dave Not as Super as the Original, but working on it Torino, Italy The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Mike McGloin [Mike.McGloin@aocnet.com] Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2001 10:09 AM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: RE: DG: FWD: God takes a stand No problem making jokes at the expense of libertarians. Very on topic. Mike -----Original Message----- From: William Timmins [mailto:wtimmins@hotmail.com] Sent: Monday, January 08, 2001 4:31 AM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: FWD: God takes a stand Yes, thank you, Nuge, for bringing out politically inflamatory material to the list. We appreciate it greatly. I just hope everyone with a political bone in their body chimes in with jokes, now, so we can get some lively political discussion to flavor our games with. I'll start... why are Libertarians interested in cloning? It's the only way they'll achieve parity! (rolling on the floor in f*ng paroxysms) -=Will _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Chris Pencis [cpencis@yahoo.com] Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2001 10:27 AM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: RE: DG: movie 'Peeping Tom' --- Bruce Ballon wrote: > A good film about a 'serial killer' is PEEPING TOM. No Hannibal be he! > Screwy photographer with an obsession to catch a good snapshot of fear > incarnate. > > Bruce Semi-OT, Peeping Tom was written by Leo Marks. Leo Marks was a code maker for the Brits in WWII, he wrote a book about it all called Between Silk and Cyanide (ISBN 068486780X). Interesting details - I heard an great interview with him on FreshAir (a US public radio show which has its interviews archived for web listening) - its here.... some interesting tradecraft http://www.npr.org/ramfiles/fa/19990713.fa.ram <- 28.8 format (low/med bandwidth - the Marks interview starts about 25-30 mins into the program and runs about 15-20 mins) I've mentioned him to the list before. Chris __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of paposehn@juno.com Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2001 10:35 AM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: "Hannibal" and the intellectual threat On Tue, 20 Mar 2001 12:56:36 -0000 "Jussi Marttila" writes: > Another noted sign of the endtimes: > > Although there are many serial killers with high IQ.s, like Ted > Bundy and > Ed Kemper, the high intelligence does not help the fact that they > are > severely hampered by the basic fact that they are insane(although > "insane" > not is really a correct term). They are unable to hold jobs for a > long time, > are bored easily and often have a history of substance abuse. Many of these things also happen to people with extremely high IQs. Anyone who finds consensus reality unsatisfying is likely to have trouble with a mundane job and to experiment with altered states of conciousness. This doesn't mean that I believe serial killers ARE more intelligent, just that these things don't preclude intelligence. > normally they do not suffer from mental illnesses and are aware of > their > deeds (which allows them to stand trial, be convicted and sent to > Death Row > instead of an asylum). Insanity as a defense is no longer viable in America. The simplified standard is that anyone who does anything to avoid immediate capture by the police must have known that what he did was wrong and is thus legally sane. > > My DG interpretation of "Hannibal" is this: we are being taught that > to be > intellectual is bad. To be smart and listen to opera is bad. Be > dumb. Sleep. > Consume. Watch TV. It's good to be one of the herd. For a wonderful treatment of this see "Harrison Bergeron" starring Sean Astin and Buck Henry. Phil Arrest,v. To formally detain one accused ofm the crime of being unusual. "The Devil's Dictionary" ---Ambrose Bierce ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of paposehn@juno.com Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2001 10:19 AM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: "Hannibal" and the intellectual threat Dear God! Someone has seen this film besides me! The film is a friendly goring of Hitchcock. The serial killer is a wannabe director who films the look of terror on the faces of his victims. Much of the film is through the eye of the camera...long before Blair Witch. Made in about 1962 and thrashed by most reviewers but now shown in many film schools. Phil On Tue, 20 Mar 2001 08:57:31 -0500 Bruce Ballon writes: > A good film about a 'serial killer' is PEEPING TOM. No Hannibal be > he! > Screwy photographer with an obsession to catch a good snapshot of > fear > incarnate. > > Bruce ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of box_nine@ix.netcom.com Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2001 11:01 AM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: DG: Re: PEEPING TOM Phil wrote: >The film is a friendly goring of Hitchcock. The serial killer is a >wannabe director who films the look of terror on the faces of his >victims. Much of the film is through the eye of the camera...long >before Blair Witch. Made in about 1962 and thrashed by most >reviewers but now >shown in many film schools. Interesting - I hadn't heard the Hitchock angle. The director, Michael Powell IIRC, also got a lot of flack for killing off the character played by an actress who had been in THE RED SHOES. PEEPING TOM was buried for years - Martin Scorsese helped restore it. And the MARSHALL LAW that was a Batman parody riffs on PEEPING TOM - the panels of the villain's father conducting experiments on him as a child are from the film-within-a-film in PEEPING TOM. ObDG - Brainwashing to create serial killers? PEEPING TOM was there first, even before PARALLAX VIEW. Steven The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of paposehn@juno.com Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2001 11:41 AM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: Re: PEEPING TOM One modern writer made that observation. Something to do with Hitchcock's obscession with cold women who wore their hair up. Didn't the victim in the opening scene look a lot like that? It has been a long time since I've seen it. Phil On Tue, 20 Mar 2001 14:01:24 -0500 box_nine@ix.netcom.com writes: > : > > > Interesting - I hadn't heard the Hitchock angle. The director, > Michael Powell IIRC, also got a lot of flack for killing off the > character played by an actress who had been in THE RED SHOES. > ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of William Timmins [wtimmins@hotmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2001 11:55 AM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: RE: DG: FWD: God takes a stand You seem to have missed the point. -=Will >From: Mike McGloin >No problem making jokes at the expense of libertarians. Very on topic. > >Mike _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Eckhard Huelshoff [EHuelshoff@t-online.de] Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2001 12:53 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: DG: Peeping Tom [ Was: DG: "Hannibal" and the intellectual threat ] Good Evening. paposehn@juno.com schrieb: > > Dear God! > > Someone has seen this film besides me! > > The film is a friendly goring of Hitchcock. The serial killer is a > wannabe director who films the look of terror on the faces of his > victims. Much of the film is through the eye of the camera...long before > Blair Witch. Made in about 1962 and thrashed by most reviewers but now > shown in many film schools. Peeping Tom is definitely a classic. And it ruined the career of the movie's star Karl-Heinz Boehm. The German audience of that era did not forgive him playing a psychopath. You see: Boehm had gotten famous by playing the young emperor of the infamous Sissi-saga and the audience wanted to see him just play this: The nice and friendly gentleman. He's still haunted by having played Empress Sissi's husband. In the 80s he moved to Ethiopia to fight the famine after losing a bet in a German TV show. Anyway, "Peeping Tom" is definitely a 'must-see' for anyone interested in the horror genre, since it deals with fear and those who suffer from fear. The main character - who kills young ladies while filming them - is himself the victim of his father, a psychologist who did a research on fear, using his son for the experiments which he filmed as well. The son still has his father's films and the scenes in which he watches them are the ones that I personally found the most disturbing: Black and white film made with a shaky handheld camera. A young boy between 5 and 7 sleeping in his bed. He wakes up because someone put some sort of lizard in his bed and becaus of the lights of the camera. The boy is shocked and disturbed and starts to cry for help, but the father just continues his filming. You can really see the desperation of the boy. Feel his fear. ObDG: I once took the plot of Peeping Tom for a non-mythos interlude in a DG campaign. I guess it only works with players who never watched the movie. But it's pure Endtimes. ECKHARD The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Eckhard Huelshoff [EHuelshoff@t-online.de] Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2001 12:53 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: Dubya Good Evening! William Timmins schrieb: [ snip] > I have no problem with political opinions explored within the context of DG > games. > > I have a slight problem with political narrowmindedness within a DG thread, > but big deal. > > I have a big problem with completely non-DG threads slamming political > figures, particularly when they lack any substance beyond 'X sucks!' Mhhh, sorry if I hurt your feelings about Bush junior. But I don't think I simply slammed him in a non-DG thread. My idea was the following: Delta Green uses several real-life persons and describes and explores their role in the DG-universe. Among the persons mentioned are both the Presidents Reagan and Bush senior. Therefore I consider only logical and very on-topic to collect ideas about a new president and his possible role in the conspiracy. And if someone shows some form of unusual or just interesting behaviour it makes him even more interesting for the game. ECKHARD The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of The Lizard King [lizardrex@charter.net] Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2001 12:55 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: "Hannibal" and the intellectual threat On Tue, 20 Mar 2001 14:51:00 +0100 Davide Mana wrote: > For a fact, a realistic scriptwriter should face the fact > that your average > serial killer looks more like the late Benny Hill than > Sir Anthony Hopkins. Just a note, Harris has many times pointed out in interviews and in the books themselves that Hannibal Lector is not a serial killer by the standards of any profile. His motives are not a serial killer's, he does not have the needs or compulsions of a serial killer. The only thing he has in common with serial killers is the killing. That's it. The Red Dragon was a serial killer, Jame Gumm was a serial killer, Hannibal Lector is something we don't have a term for yet. Think of him as a secular version of Milton's Lucifer, as least for dramatic usage. The point of 'Hannibal' is that when dealing with Hannibal Lector you must drop all of your preconceptions and deal with what is there. That's all. Just been poring over some online Harris resources. Mark McFadden The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/